Workshop - Newport Beach 1980- Page 6 of 8

Continuing.....

the same thing.  So there is no such thing as “the” method of trying to transmit information from one person to another - - it's spontaneously jumps up at any moment.  You might do something, you may never do it again as long as you live - - it may be the only thing that can get it across at that moment, but it happens.  But there is no "THE" method.

Anytime anyone had tried to devise THE method, it has become worthless.  So there is no method.  I would say that anybody here could attempt to transmit something and maybe I've been at it for a while and been doing a lot of different things; and I may think I know how - - I don't - - I know better.   But let's assume that I think, well, now I really know how to do this; and we took somebody who maybe had never tried to transmit anything to anybody - - we'll say Beth went out and talked to them; and she probably could get it across where I'd miss it a country mile because she was just being natural and doing nothing special and just going on.

So I don't know anything about THE kinds of methods, so the point that I've heard told to me along the way was that there was no such thing as the method.  That it was the way I felt about individuals; and that if I like somebody, in all probability sooner or later, we would be able to communicate quite well. 

The better I liked 'em the better we would communicate; and that if I didn't like somebody for any particular reason or I didn't feel comfortable with them for one reason or another, to not attempt anything.  So I think that our ability as a person, Phil, is far more valuable than our technical ability to communicate. 

Now at one time I worked in the healing arts; and I found out very quickly that my ability as a person was far more valuable than my technical ability as a technician to do it because the technical parts just didn't seem to do a thing for them,  Ok? 

Your ability as a person is what counts, not some method and this is what Krishnamurti is saying - -it is the ability of the person as a person, not as a technician or a teacher or anything of the sort.  And communication will take place between two people who sincerely like each other without words - - very frequently without anything at all - - and then if we sit down with all the words and the explanations and everything, it really doesn't do very much good.  Does that help answer your viewpoint?

(Yes sir and there is another angle; and maybe the answer's the same, it has to do with the aspect of the network in terms of the individual himself and liking what you call achieving - - what we might call achieving … becoming aware of the true self or....)

Being aware of what you are, where you are, what's going on here and what you can do  - - in other words you're ability at self remembering,

(Yeah, fine.)

Ok, and the ability of the person you're working with at self remembering; but the idea of self remembering could be communicated between people with precious few words or if I was trying to be technical about it, I could probably use a millions of words and write thick books; and never get a thing across, ok?  Ok, next comment, question, word?

(Yeah, Robert, I find that I have not experienced some of these various organizations - - mass movements to the ultimate end; but as you know I have investigated a lot.  I don't find fault with some of the approaches that they're using to communicate ideas with....)

No, nobody's at fault...

(But I find an absence of; and this goes along with method and I don’t know - -  this is not a method, but what I find fault with - - or take exception to - - is that whether it's Est or TM and I'm not picking on any of those.... is that there is a group of ideas which we will call self-remembering that is not communicated that gives to you or to me, something that I can leave here with that is mine personally to work on thereafter without the support of anything else.)

That’s right.

(I find that lacking in most mass movements.)

Most of 'em talk about self knowing, but precious few if any comes up with anything on self remembering to the best of my information at this moment.

(We wouldn't be dependent on their organization, then, if they gave us self remembering.)

Well, that's probably right, and so our whole bit is to try to get rid of any need for people to come.  In other words, every effort of our class is that you'll never need to come again.  Now if you wanna come, that's wonderful; but that you wouldn't need to.  That's the whole effort.  Is that what you do Marge?

(Yes.)

That’s when they've attended one class, if we really did our job well; they'd never need to come again.  They may want to in order to associate with a certain kind of people, but I want to fix it so that you would never need to come again.

(That’s right.)

In other words, I'm trying desperately to get out of a job without getting fired.

(What happens,then, in the number of years I've known you, that all the time you've been around that each discussion is a completion unto itself, the whole framework of ............)

Oh, everything's in it.  There is no little piece here and a little piece there; and you got to put it together.  We give one talk and it's got everything in it, right.  And the next one we give has got everything in it; and if you happen to hear it, then you'd never need to come again - - you may want to, but you never need to.  Somewheres back here was there a hand went up?  Yes Pearl?

(We talked about “think, act, feel” which was something to grab hold of; and it may not be a method....)

No, but it's something you can use.  It's a means of leaping; and if I went along and told somebody to do something; and they didn't know what that word meant or what it referred to, they'd have a little difficult time doing it, is that right?  If I handed somebody an empty bottle and said take these pills, they would be in a little bit perturbed as to how to go about it. 

(What would you say over your years that you've been involved with people - - what is the inability factor within most of us that prevents us leaping to it.)

Ok, the one major thing that I've seen and I've read a tremendous amount of material in my day; and I have a room full of books bigger than this; and I've given away four times that many.  They talk about all sorts of wonderful things that may happen to you in EST; but they don't give you any real direction of a road map.  Now I consider that at the most I can do is hand somebody a road map. 

But if I give you a road map of how to get from here to Imperial City, California, you could get there if you're so inclined.  But if you didn't have a road map; and there was no markers on the road; and I said get there, you'd probably be in a mess. 

Now Beth, you fly an airplane, and the whole thing looks kind of different when you get up in the air, right?  And if somebody said you go to Uma and didn't give you a heading or a map or what kind of lines you were gonna follow either visual flight rules or headings, do you think you could get to Uma fairly easy without crisscrossing the country up and down like this?  Huh?

(Never.)

Never.  You'd get lost in a matter of minutes, but you have a map and you lay a line out on it and you follow a certain heading, you'll flop over Uma right quick, right?

(Um hum.)

So the only thing we can do is to give a map; and without the map, I think most people are pretty lost, Bill, and I've read an awful lot of books didn't have a map.

(I think you give a pretty worthwhile map, Bob.)

Ok.

(May I make a hypothetical question?)

Ok, let's do; and then I'll understand what you’re asking.

(I'll say in the number of years I've known you, you've talked to 150,000 people, let’s just say 150,000 people.)

Well in round numbers, ok?

(As a round number.  You - - in a discussion like this or in a workshop or whathaveyou, you give each talk as a complete description of the map…)

…..The whole bit.

(The whole bit, all right?  And out of 150,000 people, I don't know how many would leap to it or do it; but apparently not very many.)

Apparently there's a lot more than you think.  The reason  you don't see a bunch of the others, you know, is they are the ones that got it.  They don't usually come back.

(Ok.)

I hear from them once in a while - - they send me a little card or they call now and then, but they don't come back - - they heard it.  The hard of hearing keep coming week after week, month after month, year after year.  (Laughter)

(.  What is the factor in those that don't do it?  What is that factor?)

They did not hear it.  What is the factor basically is a preconceived opinion that cannot be questioned.

(Ok that's a preconceived opinion.)

Yes, and that perceived opinion cannot be questioned.

(..That cannot be questioned.)

Now there's some ideas that are just downright sacred, don't you know that?

(I've heard you say that.)

I believe we put that under the term of pride and vanity.  Pride is having a false picture of yourself - - vanity is having a false picture of self and pride's defending it.  Ok?  I know a few people, Bill, that has a great sense of inferiority which if they ever looked at, they could be over in 15 minutes, ok?  But they cannot - - they have to defend against having that feeling of inferiority or whatever, you see.  So there's no way they can ever see it because they defend to the death that they have the sense of inferiority.

(So it’s the defense of our preconceived ideas ...)

Yes, that’s what blocks everything up.  Now there's only a few,  maybe - - one or two that are just totally sacred; and those obviously cannot be questioned; and those are the ones that a person can't get through until they're willing to look at that as being a misconception. 

(Let me ask you a technical question.  Would you say that one - - just one hang-up - - one area of a preconceived idea - - just one could really stop the whole process.)

Well, sure, because it's a whole process; and they got to maintain that particular one.

(They are liberal about every other thing.........)

...every other thing, but one place - - by God I'm not going to give this up....  That's right.

(Can you pull a couple of those out of there?)

For you, me or somebody - - just pull one out just now?  People have big senses of inferiority and they go through every effort in the world to prove to themselves and everybody else that they don't have such a feeling.  That's one. 

Another one would be “I've educated myself up to some point that it's inconceivable that I couldn't know about all these simple everyday affairs.  Now the common way I hear it is when I'm telling somebody something or giving a talk as you mentioned; and somebody raises up and says, "I always knew that."  "I've known that since i was a kid." 

(Right.)

"I've always known that."  They continue with "My wife needs this, but I don't need it."  There's a lot of folks come in or the woman comes in and she says, "My husband sure needs this." or "My son sure needs this." 

(Bob, isn’t it called pulling the block out of the other guy's eye.)

Aw, well it could be called a lot of things, but that's a very common one.  "I don't need this stuff - - I've known this all my life; but now my kid sure needs it."  "My wife needs it."  "My husband needs it."  Huh?

(I want to get them to hear this.)

"They really need to hear this, but I've been doing it all my life."  Now that’s the other biggie one, ok?  So shall we say “defending the position” is probably the one that does the best block of all of ‘em?  People know all sorts of things that they don't know.

(How about the one that we started to discuss last night when you said that it had to do with our concept about love.  The reason that we felt sorry for ourselves or got into self-pity and the depression that goes along with it had to do with when we were kids, mama always cuddled us or....)

....right somebody kissed the scratch on my knee when I fell over, right?

(So it's a misconception of “what love is”.)

Yes - - very decidedly.

(And that’s because we don't know what love is.)

Now that's because we believe we do, but, you see, we don't know; and so we don't know what love is.  We don't know what it is “to love”; and there is all kinds of people who are worrying whether they're loved or not.  But I've had very few people ever come to me and say, "I don't even know whether I'm capable of loving anything or anybody or not."  Did you ever have any of those come in? 

(Very few.)

Could you count 'em on half of one finger? 

(Probably.)

Yeah.  But you’ve had an awful lot of people who was worryin' whether they were loved or not.

(Right.)

Ok.  I much prefer to know that I can love.

(Right.)

I will possibly never be absolutely certain beyond a shadow of a doubt whether I’m loved, I may be; but we'll say that we all wouldn't be - - that really is unimportant.  What's really worthwhile is "am I capable of loving."

Now I have never had anybody to come counsel with me about being capable of loving - - I've seen gobs of them that weren't while they was sittin' bitchin' about somebody lovin' them; but I've never had anybody come in and say, "I'm probably just totally incapable of it; and I would like to be capable".  You know I'd like to have that person come in somehow; they'd be fun to work with. 

(I got it in my notes from yesterday, you said...pretend that you are a happy loving lady; and as I read that through I said, "Wait a minute."  What is this because I'm aware that you never know if you're loved?  You know how a person acts, but you don't know why they act that way.)

Well, as long as you treat me nice, what's wrong with it? Long as I'm treated lovingly, who cares?  But are you capable of loving.

(Yeah, so are you beating it to the punch because that was the next thing I was gonna have to have a talk with you about.)

Good, I got that one.  Now we got it handled.  Are you capable of loving, truly, completely, totally with no reservations and no conditions? 

Now most all the things we know about love is that we set up a whole bunch of conditions.  I'll love you if you do this and you don't do that, and if you do this every time; but if you don't do it, out the window love goes, huh?  Robin?  Boom, all gone - - all kinds of little conditions set.  So is it possible to love?  Now I'm sure that there's all kinds of things called love that is possessiveness, rejection, a jillion and one things; but those have nothin' to do with the real McCoy, ok?

Ok let's have us another word or two here to kick around for a few minutes.

(How often can you find someone who ____)

Very infrequently Dr. Pearl - - very infrequently; but it is so beautiful when you do see it that you don't worry about not seeing it very often.  You don't see real fine things of “anything” real often.

(I asked you one day what was the difference between a person who would do the work and those that would not do the work and you gave an example.  You said, "See that potted plant over there."  If I said to you, "Bill will you please water the plant." and you got some water - - you said, you’re a student and you came to work.  But if you say, "Well now wait a minute, maybe there’s pollution in the water and should I put a mat under it and how much should I give it - - three quarters of a cup" and you went on and on.  And then you said that was the difference between someone who would do it...

.... and wouldn’t do it...

(And someone who would not do it.)

One wants to know all the hows and how do you do this and on and on won’t do the work.  Now there's an old old story, I think, Albert Hubbard probably was the author of the thing called "The Message to Garcia". 

In the book, they called in many people and said, "I want you to take this message to General Garcia in the wilds of Cuba in the mountains."  And every one of them said, "Well, where is he? - - How do I get there? - - Where's the map? - - What's the code word?" etc.; and finally one guy came in and said, "What do you want?"  And they said, "We want this message to betaken to General Garcia in the Cuban mountains?"  He grabbed an oil-skin pouch, wrapped it up and put in his pocket and said, "I'll see you later."  He found out where General Garcia was and all the rest without gettin' all the detailed instructions.  So I think that is a fairly valuable little aspect of the story.  If you ever want to read the whole story which is very attractive, you can find it in Albert Hubbard's notebook and it's called, "The Message to Garcia". 

(Back to the subject of love.)

Ok, that's a good subject, we all like that.

(It is said that if you think about  “if I love my neighbors, how would I treat them”; and then go ahead and treat them that way - - regardless of how we refer to “how you feel” because love is an act of will, not an act of feeling....)

That is only a small aspect of it.  Love is a completeness of all of you or it is only a little fraction thereof.  Now you know that you fractionate out - - we have done that in pia, eros, phelia and agape.  Now if all you had was agape, you could probably use that...or phelia; but now if all of those four aspects of love should be in you because of the way you see the person, you wouldn't have to think, "How will I treat the guy?"  I don't think that it ever crosses my mind; and I'm not using me for an example, but I'm the only one that can answer your question from you asking me.  It never crosses my mind as how am I going to treat this person?  I don't care who it is.

(I can't see that either.)

It never crosses my mind.  I'm doing what I want to do. 

(Oh.)

And it never comes up, well now let's see, this person is so and so and that's my neighbor; and so how would I want to be treated; and I'm gonna treat them that way?  Good Lord!  If I'm doing that, let's forget it - - I'll just go off and be a hermit.  Yes Pearl?

(Um.  Taking the point that we said it's all really very easy.)

It's all very what?

(Easy.)

It is easy.  In fact it's spontaneous in my book without any effort whatsoever, that's what I would call spontaneous.

(Ok.  Well, for people like me, I’m ____)

Spontaneous, you'll do it another way, ok?

(And I have been experimenting with  - - just thinking that people are  beauteous and pretty much ok.)

...pretty nice people. 

(Yeah.)

As the drunks say, "You're good people."  Well, just good every way - - you please me. 

(Exquisite.)

Yeah, delightful.

(Ok. All right.  So if I carry that thought around in my mind and I really act like that whether I felt…..)

…..You’ll begin to feel that way very quickly. 

(...and some of that feeling transmits to other people.  Well, it shouldn’t be that difficult....)

It is not difficult at all. 

(You should see much more of it.)

…… that “should” comes in.  We see that most people don't do that because I have found, Dr. Pearl, that most people are not interested except they say, "I want this."  and "I want that" and I want the other and they're not concerned in what “they can do”, they want to be concerned with what “they can have” for themselves.  And as long as they see that way, it'll be infrequent.  But once I see “what can I do” then I know that I can treat people spontaneously.  I think I treat everybody all right.  Once in a while I bite, but not to often; and that's usually because somebody asked me to.  Did I ever bite you? 

(No.)

No.  Do I treat you all right?  I never thought well how do I want to treat Robin.  I never thought of that.  I'm just spontaneous with what comes in.  I never thought how am I gonna treat Ruth. 

I just wouldn't think about how I was gonna treat anybody - - it just comes up spontaneous ok?  But I do know how to see everybody.  I do know how I see them.  Now I don't have to wonder how I'm gonna think of them; and Pearl says she's seeing them that way now.  At least making an effort at it, huh? 

(Yes.)

You're getting in that direction ok?  How do you see everybody Miss Pat?

(I see people as beautiful people, everybody is good.)

They're all all right.

(Yes, they’re ok and I’m ok.)

Right, they're more than “ok” as far as I'm concerned.  What’s the next question up here? 

(You were talking about the difference between intellect and awareness.)

Intellect and awareness.  Awareness is being aware from all the sensory input up here.  We're aware of each other here and we're aware of sounds outside. We're aware of the sun shining. 

The intellect is what we're educated to assume or think or respond to various standardized stimuli from infancy of what parents gave us, teachers gave us, peers gave us - - everything that we have accepted as being factual which is education that forms the intellect.  So it is the great reservoir of all the things that we have decided “this is the way things are” including two plus two equals four. 

Now awareness is only aware of the stimuli that's coming in now and without an intellect we couldn't do conceptual thinking.  This is seeing relationship between ideas and so forth which we have put together.  A lot of things aren’t factual such as people see relationship between things that are not related.  They see a thing called “cause/effect”; and it really doesn’t exist, so sometimes they see incompletely of “what is” and that forms misconceptions.  So all  misconceptions are in intellect.  Awareness is just aware, here it is - - we’re sitting here, we’re talking, the temperature is a certain thing to me, certain words are being said which we have use of intellect to say that word refers to certain things.  That seem to clarify a wee bit, ok?

(Robert, I have a subject I’d like you to talk about if you would.  The difference between X, individuality and all of us that the number of individual persons in the room, yet each being a oneness…)

Uh huh as an individual?

(… the individual, the big X and then all those little x’s, ok - - the relationship between that; and how the individuality of that one principle is?)

Ok.  All right, here’s physical bodies - - each one of them is a little different, ok? 

(Right.)

And here is awarenesses and intellects in there because they’re all educated to some degree, ok? 

(All right.)

Now let’s say that X equals energy for lack of what else to go along with for a while, ok?  That energy is an intelligent energy.  And let’s say that we could replace X with electricity - - electrical energy, ok?  And this is your house and this is my house and this is Chris’s house and this is Charle’s house.  She wants to run an iron and do a little ironing and run the washing machine and do a little laundry….

(But this energy put this together?)

Oh yeah, put it together so that it could be a function; but this determines which way it’s going to be used, ok?

(Ok.)

So you could use it for painting.  I could use it for talking.  Charles could build aerospace devices and Chris could make a movie, ok?  So that goes on down the line.  Now the energy could care less what it does, but each of these individual awarenesses can make the demand.  And you draw out of that, that endless bank, whatever you want to.

(I would have thought that was the consciousness you just described the awaress quite differently than consciousness.)

Well a minute ago, we’ll say that I’m aware or conscious of what I want, and we could go ahead and add it a little further.  We hope that number one this is the awareness function which we said has intellect in it - - who has the whole thing put together - - which equals consciousness. 

Now each one of these may have entirely different interest; but you’re using the same common energy bank for the thing you want to do.

(Ok, the individuality is determined by the intellect then - - the individualized…..)

Naw, it could be determined - - that’s in my “I don’t know department” and I’m not gonna fiddle with that one Bill.

(Ok.)

As to why you’re interested in making movies and somebody else is interested in running a business and somebody else is interested in cooking and somebody else is interested in making boats and somebody else is interested in sailing boats.  I can’t answer that one.  I’ll have to say that’s the way the cookie crumbles.

(Ok.)

That’s the way we do it.

(Yeah.)

And who knows, I may change my major interest as far as occupations at any time.  You and I both have without notice.  One day I was all carried away with being a doctor and the next day I wasn’t.  Phlap - - that sudden, huh?  I don’t do that one anymore, ok?

(I don’t understand where it doesn’t matter what you do, but yet the same knowing tells you exactly what to do.)

Well, it’s only interested in this body down here - - it wants to survive it.  So let’s say X, this energy, intelligent energy - -it builds a motor function and an awareness function; and it fell in love with the awareness function and says, “I’ll do anything you ever want. “ - - but you can’t destroy the body - - it’ll let you decide what you want, but it will tell you that it’d like to keep the motor function functioning well.  But X falls in love with its awareness function and says, “I’ll do anything for you.”

(Hum.)

It’s up to you from there on.  Now it will tell you what it wants to eat for the body because the body is its function of which too, in many cases, gives awareness what it wants.

(Did you say the body is the function of the awareness and the awareness is then…)

No.  No.  I didn’t say that Bill.

(What’d you say a minute ago?)

I said the body is the motor function of X.

(Oh, I thought you said of awareness.)

No I carefully got this in here Bill.  The motor function of X.

(Ok. That’s what I thought you meant - - I wondered….)

Awareness or mind, if you want to call it that, in all its levels - - mind is the awareness function of  X.  Now it seems that X fell in love with its awareness function and will do anything it says and it sure does care for the motor function and wants to keep it going if you will listen a little bit.  But that’s the only place it gives any advice.

(What happens if the awareness function says, “I’m in love with you too, X and I’ll do whatever you want to do.”)

Well, I think they’d get along all right.  You’d mind your own business and tell it what you wanted.  So I figure if I’d do what X wants me to do, I’d try to say what I want to do all the time.

(Would you repeat that kind of slow?)

I will go very slow Charles.  I said I feel that I definitely love X and will do what it wants me to do - - what it wants me to do is take care of my job of “reporting to it what it is I want to do”.  So I report to it what I want to do; and we get along just lovely.  Haven’t had an argument in all our lives.  Yes?  I’ll take Robin first and you second, Pearl.

(Ok there are times, then, that X loves the awareness, and you can feel the awareness in the body.)

It’s all one piece, so close together it’s all one.  It’s in total union.  It’s in total union, and I want it to stay that way, ok?

(Ok.)

Pearl?

(In humans, then, isn’t there a desire for life and joyousness.)

Oh I think there is always that it’s there, but more than likely instead of a desire, it’s an expression of it.  In other words, I believe that instead of me desiring these things, I express them, honey.  That about right?  I don’t have to desire it, that’s spontaneously.  I want to express life and joy and peace and fun and whathaveyou.

(I don’t understand?)

Ok, what’s the desire now? 

(Um.  It’s difficult for me to conceive that people really - - ok - - I see people as desiring to be able to express the joy.)

Oh, I’m aware of that - - I’m very aware of that.

(And out of that idea, I see a lot of that happening around me.)

Well, that’s right.

(And although the outside manifestation may be for grief and sorrow and pain and all that…)

…whatever, we don’t know.

(It doesn’t take long to scrape that off and see beauty?)

Oh sure.  I think that’s the nature of every being is to express joy and so forth, but they’ve been covered up with a little dust and so they get carried away with the dusting instead of going and seeing what they can do, ok?

(___ something else that’s blocking them, is there like their own worth for themselves.  You know what I mean?  They want to be loved or …)

…want to be this instead of seeing that they already have it.  So my viewpoint is, I already have everything, so now I can give it.  But as long as I can’t see that I already have everything I could ever want, then I would be in a state of I want, I want, I want, I want.

(And that’s the block?)

And that blocks.  But I already have it.  I have food, clothing, shelter, transportation, interesting things to do, interesting people to be around - - delightful companion - - you got it all, so now there’s nothing to struggle for because now I can start thinking about the other way around, ok?  So first we have to discover we already have everything that we’re “supposed” to be looking for, right?  That’s very easy to see, I think.  We just check up on it - - I already have it.

(When you “discover”, I mean “you know” that you got everything but you still get off on wanting more stuff….)

Yeah, because we listen to the suggestion - - “You’d be happy if you had all this stuff”.  But the point is you first look to see you already have it.

Ok.  Who’s got the first one out this time?  Who wants to start the subject?  Don’t have to be a question - - it’s something you want to talk about.

(Are you ready?)

I’m ready, let’s go.

(For a question.)

For whatever.

(Are you willing to discuss something I haven’t heard in this one and that is the experience of the state of consciousness along with enthusiasm, vital interest, the other ones in the  levels of consciousness that you call the artist state?)

Nope, not ready for that yet.  That goes on further.  We’re not going to that one yet.  We’re trying to get everybody up to exhilaration first and then when they get there, why then I’ll go on beyond.  They tried that one on me last night; and I wouldn’t buy that either.  That’s pure curiosity.  Steiner, you’re just one notch above apathy - - don’t give me that.
I may do those later; but right now I don't think they're appropriate.  We'll probably get there but not today, ok?  I've lived out on the border too long - - we'll do it, but not today.  Manana.

(Bob, you said something the other day about - - you were going to talk about romantic love.  Now is that....)

Well, Steiner is now most involved in here so we'll let him have that session.  Let him tell you about it.

(Thank God, Robert.)

You're welcome, why don't you tell 'em about Miss Lynn and everything here.  You could bring that up couldn't you Steiner?  Elucidate on that a bit for everybody. 

(It's really very simple.)

Romantic love is possibly the very rarest thing that occurs in the human being; and possibly one of the most delightful that can occur; and I wouldn't know how you could originate it.  You could have facsimile's thereof in many ways by acting a certain way and so forth; but I think that is one of those things that Charles brought up this morning - - pure unadulterated grace - - totally undeserved goods that comes your way, or good that comes your way; and that there wasn't anything you did to earn it, deserve it or otherwise; and it possibly is no way to describe it; but I think if you ever had it occur to you, you'd have no doubts about it, ok?  Does that help answer your whole question a bit?  And it is an undeserved goodness or joy that is given to you; and you didn't earn it, you didn't achieve it, it happened to you like every other thing that is really most wonderful in this world including life, you know.  There's nothing we can do to achieve life or whathavyou and I would say that romantic love is the flowering of total life; and it is not just simple things that most people get involved in that come and go for a while and see what'll happen; and you get along fine for a few weeks and start fightin' and so forth - - that's not the idea.  What else do you want to know about it Debbie? 

(Is it possible to choose people with all their not i's working to experience it.)

I expect that it would be better if the not i's weren't around because if they saw it start, they would probably put in the best program of destroying it, that could ever be because the not i's want you to be miserable.  If they saw that it was about to occur or was occurring, I'm sure that with the not i's fully able and capable of working, they would probably get there and start throwing in their usual bits of things to attempt to destroy it.  Now if you were aware of not i's and knew how they worked, then you might be able to see them attempting to do their thing of destroying it because they sure would try, I'll assure you of that. 

(So very few people experience that.)

I would say it is rare - - yes, uh huh. 

(Does both parties have to know about the not i's and what they do?)

I wouldn't say anything about have to's, but I would say it’s just as well they knew about it, and they knew what they were talking about - - that not i's were attempting to destroy, because the not i's are wreckers.  Their whole business is to go to work and destroy things. 

Robin you and I have worked on a little manuscript here and  is that somewheres close to correct - - the not i's will do their best to destroy anything, is that right?  The more desirable it might be the harder they work; and they do use all their little skills and talents.  Now I maintain that
not i's take night classes while you sleep.  They go to headquarters and take classes and they tell how they got tripped up today; and they have some experts there who tell them how to handle that.

(...talk about that.)

Well, they do do an excellent job of catching on to how you might see them.  Then the expert says, "Well try this approach."  And they try a much more subtle approach the next time.  But I'm sure that the not i's would not want anybody to experience romantic love. 

Now if I may go a little farther on, I will try to talk about that if you had all four aspects of love - - pia, eros, phelia, and agape - - all working very very well in any given situation, it would probably be that the the gift would be more recognizable.  I still think it would be a gift; but I think you might recognize it a little easier if those four were each one fully operative in the person.  Most of us have only heard those words and never really fiddled around with them for long enough for them to work.  Now this aspect works automatically - - pretty well, but it by itself is not very much.

(What do you mean fiddle around with them enough to make ‘em work.)

You haven't studied a minute.  I don't like to be serious and say study and all that stuff.  But if you insist, I will.  That you'd really practiced being these or being aware of them. 

In other words, eros is bound to occur - - you got children so it has to come up, ok - - you have family.  You may fuss about them, but I better not try.  So you, no doubt, have run across  a little bit of pia.  In phelia you like certain things; and agape,  you have seen once in a while if you’ve noticed that people are doing what they feel is right, proper and justifiable  because otherwise they can't do it.  Now if those were much more actualized - - that you were aware of them in their fullest extent, and you had no qualms about any of them, then you might find it would go.  Another thing that I think interferes with romantic love that in the very nature of it, it is a very deep total commitment; and I think most people are very touchy about having commitments.

(Most used to be or were they always……)

Oh well, I think they've always been.  I've been here several days Ruth; and they've been ever since I've known about them, they've been very touchy about having commitments.  That right Neal? 

(Yes.)

In other words it's a frightening idea to have a total commitment to something or someone is that right?

(Yes.)

You see, you like to have - - what do we call it in leases - - an escape clause - - we all want an escape clauses.  Now there can be no such thing as romantic love with an escape clause in it, ok?

(When you say commitment, how would I put it - - ....)

You're writin' in an escape clause, I assume, now, is that right?

(No, commitment to me indicates that you're dealing with the future.)

No, I’m talking about right now. 

(Well, a commitment right now is rather simple; and so romantic love would last about 2, 3 hours….)

No, I’m talking about right now, right this moment and all other moments that was with it.  I would say a total commitment to certain situations ok?  And romantic love has commitment; and it is without demands or anything - - doesn't have to be written and all that.  It is a commitment within yourself.  It's not necessarily to another person, but it is a commitment within yourself without any escape clauses, ok?  That it is within yourself. 

(There's also a fear of vulnerability.)

That is absolutely correct 'cause you are totally vulnerable, right! - - 100%, and that, I said, is probably where the commitment is - - you're 100 per cent vulnerable by choice; and you don't want to be that way because you might get hurt.  If there's anything terrible, it's you might get hurt. 

Yes Pearl?

(When you said romantic love, I thought you were talking about Eros, but I see…...)

Well, that's just one little part of it.  Eros can be around without romantic love - - I think everybody's found that out very very well.  It's been demonstrated beyond any shadows of doubt that Eros is around without romantic love.  Cats and dogs have pia, eros and phelia.  Only humans can have agape.  When you get them all together, you might have romantic love and certainly only humans are capable of that one; but humans can go along with these things.  So pia, eros, and phelia, they just happen - - let's face it.  They come and go like breezes; and there is nothing superior in the human with them - - basically, they’re in a dog or a cat; but then agape changes you.  It says that only a human can have agape - - dogs, cats and other animals can't; and apparently only a few humans can.  And then even further limited off is to get all four of them working in harmony sufficient enough; and as we said, experience the gift - - then there is romantic love.  But eros can be around all over the place. 

(You said that commitment is within yourself?)

Well, you can make any one you want.  If it is a commitment inside yourself to the other person, then the other person needn't be told about it probably, but it probably would be.  But definitely, the commitment you would be totally committed to the person that you had a romantic love for - - totally with no escape clauses, yes.

(Isn't it right Bob that this is - - that romantic love is an aid to the union with X?)

It is another way of seeing union with X, ok?  It is simply another way of saying it.  It is not an aid, it is; but it's just another way of saying it because there is a total union; and wherever there's total union, the union is with X.  You are X, I'm X, Debbie's X, Robin's X and so forth; and where it is, it is the union ok?  And one of lasting, not just a passing one right here.

(A symbol of....)

No, I'm saying IT IS.  I think I said it very clearly, didn’t I?

(What about one side of the relationship.  There is one person feels that they feel all of these aspects, and the other person doesn't feel it.)

I have not seen that one so far.

(Uh huh, so in other words, one is always ____)

I've never seen that situation yet. 

(Well, you hear about ....)

Well, I've heard of the unrequited this - - in other words we have this and get rejected, "Oh god, it's horrible."  Yes?

(Well, romantic love is not just for man and women, it refers one to another.)

That is possible, it also refers to X and man or whatever, ok?   Awareness and man - - as I think I said a while ago that X fell in love with awareness, ok - - total romantic love - - total commitment with no reservations, no conditions.  Now most of the love that passes around here, there and elsewhere has all kinds of conditions on it.  I will love you if you do so and so; but if you don't do so and so, I’ll raise holy hell.  That's conditional love and that is the kind we usually see; and, of course, everybody likes to rate their situation much higher than it is, so they call that romantic love and then they fight over it for years, ok? 

(Bob you said X has it for awareness. )

I believe that's what I said, right.

(Well, that could be one sided, couldn’t it?)

Oh, I don't think so.  If awareness is sound asleep, it would be one sided; but if it's awake a little bit, I think it has to go two ways far as I see.

(I was thinking about being asleep.)

Well, if it's asleep, you don't know what's going on anyway.

(Couldn't that be true in humans also?)

I don't hardly think so.  I think I said this was a gift, and a gift is to two people.  It's like some arrangement of union.  So if I come give you and Melba a gift - - I've given it to both of you, I wouldn't say, "Well, Charles here's a gift for you and Melba" and leave her out of the situation.  The gift is for two people as best I can see; it has a certain - - it is a gift in my humble viewpoint.  Yes sir?

(Robert it also includes the talks you’ve done about the union of the individual's purpose and will.)

Right, and so there is a certain amount of purpose and will involved there, ok.  So we said there's a commitment which is will - - it’s another way of saying will, isn't it? 

(Where does the gift come from?)

Life, hadn't you noticed - - that's the giver of all gifts that includes anything. How do you tell the difference between ectatic joy and pain?  Somebody tell me?  You see, when you see a person in a state of ectatic being, it would be very difficult to discern from appearances whether they were suffering intense pain or intense joy - - I think there's a place where they meld together my friend.  And who cares about having a little pain anyway, if it is pain, ok?

(Too much of a good thing a painful, huh?)

I didn't say that.  I said it was difficult to tell.  If you were going to attempt to discern by looking at a person, a person in a state of “ecstatic being” whether they were in intense pleasure or pain.  I think there's a certain place and it gets so intense that nobody could say it was one or the other - - would you agree with that Miss Robin?

(Yes.)

You couldn't say it was one or the other, it is just intensity of being, is that right?  You know I see some things that's so utterly beautiful, that I get lumps in my throat at things.  I don't know whether.....would you call it pain?.... I don’t' know.  Yes Norma?

(Is it possible for a person to experience romantic love until you have experienced it within yourself?)

I think it would be one in the same thing - - if you had that intense sense of union in an internal commitment of yourself, you have experienced union with X or with another person it's the same difference, ok? 

Sometime when you want to, there is a beautiful story or a song or something that's in the Bible that's called the Song of Solomon in the new version and it's called Canticles, I think in the King James version if you would like to read it.  It's prettier in the new version; but somebody toned it down a little bit.  It's a very descriptive thing about romantic love; and inasmuch as the Protestant ethic got in it,  in the King James version, it's toned down quite a bit.  The other one is much more descriptive - - in case you ever wanted to read it.  It's a pretty song, pretty story, pretty bit whatever you want to call it - - story, song, canticle.  Canticle means song, doesn't it Steiner?   I don't know.  Does Canticle mean song? 

(I think so.)

I think so.  A cantor is a singer, isn't it?  Is a canticle a song? 

(I don’t' know.)

Well, a cantor is a singer; I do know that, don't you?  We both know that one all right.  We can get along without the rabbi, but not without the cantor.  We got to have him.  Can't have any service at all without the cantor.  Ok any other questions, comments to the point or whathaveyou here dear?  We covered romantically love very sketchily and completely, ok? 

(Right.)

We said it is a gift and you will certainly recognize when it's around and don't kid yourself that every little episode of Eros has romantic love, ok?  We're not knocking Eros.  I think it's here to stay for quite a while.

(Bob, when you made the tape - - anyway, when I was up at the cabin I listened to tape 47 where you’re talking about spreading the teaching around - - passing it on; and in listening to that, it seemed that there was some urgency in the situation….)

I think there is.  I think there's an intense sense of urgency about it.  We talked about that earlier today, I think It's dangerous to be out here running around without it, ok?  So I think there is an intense sense of urgency, yeah.  I feel that every day of the world, uh huh.  Now I'm not expecting that California will suddenly slip off the ocean and that Arizona or New Mexico will be the new west beach - - I don't think that - - don’t' get that wrong.  I just said for you and me it is urgency, ok?   Yeah, I very definitely consider its urgency.

(It's different than it was two decades ago?)

No, it was urgent then - - still urgent; and it'll be urgent two decades from now, right?  It's not something that I see as any unusual difference as far as everything else.  It's urgent to you or me as an individual.

(I was talking about the “passing part” of it.)

Well, I think it's very urgent to pass it on because you and I can only talk to so many people; and if everybody in here talked to five people, it'd still be only making nothing.  It wouldn't even be like a drop in a bucket.  So yes, I think it's urgent - - very much so.  I always consider it urgent.  That's why I work.  If I didn't think it was urgent, I'd probably be  goofin' off, sittin' out here on a sailboat or going somewheres like Jamaica.  Who knows what I'd be doin'.

(What about your commitment to go to Jamaica?)

I’ll put it together.

(It’s an element called time.)

All one, don’t get impatient with it.  What we want is a lot of people there in it.  Yes Pearl?

(You can’t do what you do in Jamaica.)

I can.  And I can also do it in several other places.  But right now I’m not interested in goin’ to Jamaica today; but I have been there lots and I intend to be back there a lot.

(You don't have to be in a particular place.)

Oh, I can be anywhere.  Dear, I have been everywhere including Jamaica; and I was in Jamaica less than 8 hours until I was busily working.  And I went there to play.

(Why can not one work and play.  In other words if........)

All I do is play or all I do is work, I make it sound better by saying I work.  By saying playing nobody leaves me anything.  If I say I'm working, some do Pearl.   (Laughter)

(Is what you do as as we see as miracles that happen in people's lives an expression of romantic love?)

It's an expression of “Being”.

(Is not “Being” an expression of romantic love.)

“Being” is, but not necessarily romantic love - - the two are equal, ok?

(All right.)

“Being” is always there, but miracles happen to people all over the place.  I know I'm not answering it the way you want me to, but it's ok.  I don't think they're the same Pearl.  We can do things that you consider miracles happen in people's lives; and that is the outcome of faith and a few things like that; but it is not necessarily romantic love, ok?  Could be sometime, maybe, but not always by any means, ok? 

(I'm getting the impression that romantic love is very impersonal.)

It probably is very personal, impersonal, and any other descriptive terms you could use.

(And all of the above.)

And all of the other above - - I would say that when you try to describe the indescribable, you're busy.

(Are you saying that romantic love, truly romantic love does not end?)

I would believe that is somewhat about correct dear one, ok? 

(Is romantic love another expression of energy which has no particular end.)

I would say that is true.  It's an expression of the union of energy - - there's no beginning and no end, ok? 

(So if one is in love with - - energy - - if one is in tune with a wonderful energy of the universe, is that an expression of romantic love?)

It could be under some cases, yes.  Some it could not be.  Trying to define the indefinable and trying to get a definition for the undefinable is very busy, so let's see if you experience it rather than trying to know about it.  It would be like sitting down here and saying let's list all the attributes of God so we'll know all about a God.  We're wastin' our time. So let's leave the subject now without the definition.  We tried the best we could to talk about it a little bit; and we'll say amongst other things, that it is a gift.  So why not wait around and see if the gift occurs for you.  It might be the most wonderful thing that ever happened to you; and if it does, wonderful.  If it don't, I suppose you'll survive it anyway for a while.  Ok, now we covered that subject.  We shall proceed on to the next one.

(We’re through talking about that?)

Oh, I already quit now, I said we've covered that subject - - we have to stop now.  We're not gonna handle that one anymore because it's gettin' down to philosophical junk and not trying to refine things; so I don't want to play that game now.  We're gonna quit right here.  I won't entertain any more subjects on that one for the time being, ok?  Some other time, maybe I will, but not today.  Well, it's after 4:00 - - you got somethin' comin' here.

(Yeah, I just wondered if you report something accurately can you keep adding things onto it?)

Well, you probably could, but it wouldn't look very accurate anymore.

(Well, sure when you got more details.)

Well, I believe I wouldn't report it in the first place until I was ready to anyway without starting to add on.  Say, "Hey wait a minute, I forgot about this."  "I wanna add this now."  "Hey wait a minute, I wanna add this on."  No, that's not very accurate “Little Bit” - - that's not the way it works.  Why not just do them one at a time and be done with it instead of addin' on, ok?

(Ok.)

Don't complicate the thing because  - - you know, pretty soon you'd have a book written.  Ok? 

(I'm so stuck with rules.)

I don’t' have any rules.

(I know you don’t.  So how come if there's something that I see that I want and X has said whatever my intellect ...)

....can conceive,

(Can conceive.)

 It can achieve.

(Yes. so how come the rules about how many I can write down ..........)

Well Pearl, we didn't say rules, you didn't ever hear Miss Beth's question.  She started off with something and then wanted to add this and this and this and it wouldn't be accurate.  I said do them one at a time.  In other words, instead of keeping adding on, "Hey I forgot this and addin' on" why not just make a new one out of it and be done with it. 

Yes, you can have anything you want - - no objection.  And there's no rules about it.  The only thing is that she asked would it be clear.   Is that the question you asked?  And I  think it'd be less than clear if I started addin' this and say wait a minute, now, I wanted a Corvette - - now wait a minute, I want to be sure it's yellow, I want it air conditioned - - now it's all right to have the whole schemer, I could care less; but try to get it all stated at one time.  It makes it easier.  There's no rules or regulations as far as I'm concerned.  It's just she asked if it would be clear, is that right?

(Yes.)

I said it would get confusing - - it would to me.  I don't know, maybe whoever fills the order wouldn't be bothered with it.   

(Um.  On the tapes, all the different exercises that you gave us to do resulted in - - well, brought about certain experiences.)

Right.

(Well, this week we touched on the higher states of being; but as you said, we obviously weren't ready for those, so are those....)

The higher states of being?

(Are higher states of being the result of having done all those exercises or are they more the result of what we’ve been trying to do this week which was generating the energy and the enthusiasm.)

They will come about when you are in a state of high energy, enthusiasm.  They come about now and then - - they do occur.  Now they’re not states of being in which you would want to stay all the time because you couldn’t do anything.  You could care less.  You couldn’t even think about something.  You would experience something very delightful; but there isn’t anything you could do to bring them about. 

In other words it wouldn’t be safe to be driving a car around and have one of those states of being.  It wouldn’t be very useful to be at work, we’ll say, doing anything - - looking after a house or trying to run a business or anything else because thinking ends - - period.  It just comes to an end and it is an experiencing; and it’s why I don’t ever talk about ‘em because it’s not necessary. 

I have written them down, but only decided that the better part of valor was to quit doing that because people begin to be hungry to try an experience.  And if you were trying to have one, you’d never have it, ok?

(So they are a natural result.)

It’s a natural outcome of - - we ran numbers of the tone scale  here to eight on the tone scale, right?

(Um hum.)

5, 4, 3, 2, 1 and a fraction down here - - apathy, fear, held resentment, anger, boredom, contentment, and vital interest, enthusiasm.  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, - - we quit there because all the others are happenings.  They’re spontaneous when you are here - - now and then it’s going to occur.  Now how often?  I don’t know.  And if you were trying to experience it, you would absolutely block it. 

(Right, and what we’ve got so far is what we can use to function with…)

With up to here.  Now you can do this.  So we’re gonna lay that out.  You can generate this state of being here.  You can generate the energy that that state of being is being experienced - - when it does, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 is liable to occur. 

(Ok.)

And I wouldn’t know which one - - because they can hop, skip and jump around up there.

(They’re states of being that occur?)

They are absolutely gifts - - not something you can do.  From one up you can do.  From vital interest and enthusiasm on up is absolutely a gift, ok?

(Right.  Now the ones under there, it was a matter of - - well I’ll use the word like evolving up.)

It is working up the tone scale.  Somebody comes in that’s here - - say fear, somebody here anger, somebody here, somebody here, somebody halfway in between here….. 

(So you can get to that point?)

And it’s up to you.  It is like many things you can do things up to a certain point.

(Well, the ones under there - - is it like progressing - - is it necessary in order to be at a certain point.)

Where you could get up here?  In other words a person can’t go from the lowest state to here right suddenly, it seems like.  They do go through these steps. 

I think I’ve told you that I’ve worked with people that were down here [on the tone scale] - - and you sit and talked and worked with them and you can see them go through every one of these things before they get up to a higher state.

(Now the states above - - they are individual experiences?)

And they are gifts.

(And they do not particularly lead to - - well, like those below lead to all kinds of misery?)

No, they just come and go and they are every one a gift; and you never earn them.  And there isn’t any way that you could generate it.  And any attempt to force it into being by any effort on our own part from here up will result in a total blocking it, ok? 

(Under various conditions - - various ones….)

They’re various ones and they do happen and I don’t know what the condition is or anything except that I’m already here.  If I’m here, some of these will occur - - not when I’m trying to work or working or driving cars and things like that because, let’s face it, you’re not capable of that.  You can only do one thing - - experience that level of being, ok?

(Right.)

And it is an experiencing, not doing.

(Right and the experiences are not like the ones below; the experiences below like vital interest enabled you to do something.)

That’s the one where you’re in ultimate doing.  These upper states are experiencing - - so let’s put down here - - vital interest and enthusiasm are doing.

(But I mean the experiences that resulted in a thing you could use.)

That you could work with that.  In other words I can work much better enthusiastic than I could fearful.

(But I mean the result of those was a…)

Uh huh, working - - and you could get there and continue being in that state of being.  Beyond this, you’re not gonna stay there anyway.

(And those things that were down there are not the same gift.)

No, these are not gifts.  These are the natural outcome of what you are - - think, act, feel.  These up here are 100% gifts and you have to be here, obviously, to get up there; but you can do it.

(The ones below are the ones…)

…that anybody can work at, ok?  And use.  When you get it, you can use it.  It has a practical value, we’ll say, if you want to go to that word.  This has no practical value.

(Sheer lovely.)

Pure unadulterated luxury and it’s a pure gift.

(Bob, excuse me, is 8 then vital interest?)

Eight is exhilaration or enthusiasm.  Seven is vital interest.

(Seven is vital interest?  That’s good to know.)

One is apathy, fear - -

(Oh ok, coma is not one?)

No, that’s 1/10.

(Zero.)

That’s one tenth.  Zero is death - - one below coma, ok?

(Well, now in order to experience the ones above - - you’re going to have to be pretty much on eight for a while.)

I would say it would be well to live there; and then all sorts of things happen, ok.  Just make that home base.  That’s home - - that’s your new address, ok?  Live there.

(That’s a good move.)

That’s a good move.  You can live there and from time to time, you get to go to the things that’s up here. 

(The fourth floor.)

Something - - whatever’s up there.  You get to go to that and it is a gift; and it is not something that would be of any practical value to have.  It probably leaves you with a tremendous amount of energy as a gift.  But you can use the energy for whatever you want to - - but it is a charge - - and it is not something that would be of any particular great value for you - - it comes in and does things and there may be things happen in it that you could use, but you couldn’t depend on getting it again, because it’s still a gift, ok?

(The others you know how to get.)

That’s right.  That’s right.  There’s a decided dividing line there.  So those are as Margaret said, pure luxury; and they are wonderful, but don’t try to get one, because that blocks it.  It will come spontaneously because you wouldn’t know what you was really looking for anyway.  That’s the nice part of it.  You wouldn’t know what you was looking for, would you?

(If you were in exhilaration, you wouldn’t be thinking about it.)

That’s exactly right.  That’s good enough for me.  Neal?

(Have you ever met anybody on this planet that you feel, that  spends much time…?)

Up there?

(Up there…)

Oh they might be there two or three different times a day for a few seconds or a few minutes - - mostly seconds probably.  But you’re talking about spending 8 hours there?  That’d be pretty bad.

(I hear stories by different gurus.)

Oh, I’ve heard all the guru’s.  I’m well acquainted with all the guru stories, ok?

(A lot of times…)

Well, who knows where they’re spending a lot of time except him.  I don’t know where he’s spending his time.

(That’s why I haven’t met…)

Well, I don’t know how much of the time he’s up there; but if I went on poking, he could talk to me anywhere up and down here. 

(This is not obvious to another person, only obvious to him?)

I would imagine that’s the only person that really knows it.  So I wouldn’t know how to guess a person is or is not, ok.  Its static experiences is what they would probably be called, ok?  And I don’t know of any reason to; but if somebody wants to be there; and it should happen to them that they’re there all the time, it would be fine with me.  But it would have no practical value for you, me or anybody else.  If he enjoys it, fine.  There’s a lot of people try to get it artificially with coke and a few other things.

(So does this include then a whole level that you identify as the “fourth level of consciousness” or objective?)

I would say that from number seven up would be called objective consciousness, yes.

(You differentiate - - yeah, ok, but I just want to understand it because your tapes - - your Science of Man tapes specifically differentiate self-awareness - - the true awakened state from the fourth level.)

Well, so this is pure objective consciousness because there’s nothing there you can do anything about except be objective, ok? - - because if you tried to make it subjective, it’s all gone all of a sudden.

(Then you’re seeing all that as an unearned experience?)

Right, unearned experience, right sir.  And I don’t know how much of the time the guru spends there and you know something else?  I don’t care.

(Ok.) 

Totally disinterested.  Charles?

(Well, my interpretation of a thrust of what you’ve been saying is you are emphasizing the doing part.)

Right, the rest will take care of itself.  I don’t have to bother with it, thank goodness.

(For a while I thought it was because the doing naturally led one someplace.)

Oh, I expect gets you to the point where things can happen.  In other words, let’s say that you wanted to look at palm trees growing around outside.  I don’t think you would start in Alaska looking for them, ok?  I don’t think you would start in Toronto looking for them.  You might probably go to some area where palm trees grow.  Now that doesn’t mean there’s a palm tree every square foot there, but every now and then you’ll find a palm tree in the tropics, or sub-tropics.

(But I’m now wondering whether the doing is something apart from the results to the individual.  I’m wondering whether you don’t perceive the doing as something to be done.)

Oh I see the doing as something to be done to here Charles. 

(I’m not talking about the individual.)

Ok, what are you talking about?

(A minute ago you said something alike, you wouldn’t want to be up there because you can’t do anything.)

There wouldn’t be anything that I would be doing - - a function in the manmade world, no.

(So what’s wrong with that?)

Nothing.  Stay there all the time if you want to.

(It does suggest that there’s a value functioning in the manmade world.)

I’m interested in it.  That’s all - - it’s my interest in it.  Now I could sit up there and as Neal suggested, maybe I could sit in the Lotus position and stay in that kind of state for hours, I don’t know; but that doesn’t interest me. 

Now to another person, that may be of very great interest.  I don’t know.  I like to be doing things.  I like to be doing things, communicating with other people, tearing things down, building things, whatever.  I just happen to like that - - I’m not suggesting that’s good, bad, or indifferent.  I don’t know what’s good, bad or indifferent.  It wouldn’t be of any practical value is what I said - - and the practical is doing something in the manmade world.

Now somebody got in a state that was probably very ill when they started, they might get up feeling fantastically well from it.  I don’t know that; but again it would be something that happens.  It’s not something they can bring about.

(I’m not talking about making it a goal.)

….or anything, it just happened.

(I’m not talking about that, but I thought I knew somebody who brought back something - - a revelation about it.)

Well, I’ve heard of things like that. 

(So that might be good.)

Well, it could be.  So if you bring one back, it’ll be all right.  Don’t get him snarled up crossing the line with it.  The revelation’s usually basically for the person.  But I know people who come up with various and sundry things.  I think you can also get a revelations down here; but I have no concern.

 The only thing I'm tryin' to get across if I can say, it's not something you work at, it is a gift when you live up in here.  Let's say you stayed most of your time in here? - - just those two.  These are bound to occur from time to time, and they're not going to be produced by your effort - - that's what I've tried to answer your question.  That was a “why” question.  That's what I gathered from it.  Ok.

(You’re saying try 7 and 8, you might like it.)

Yeah, try it you might like it

Who knows, you might like to stay there.  You might like to move there, and establish a residency there, and live there for a while.  You tried it on a vacation once, you liked it and you moved there.  That's how you got to New Smyrna Beach, wasn't it?  You went there on a vacation and decided you liked it, so you moved there.  It's the same way.  People spend a lot of time in here and so you might try this out for a vacation.  If you like it, move in, ok?  It's all right.  It's not overly crowded - - there's a lot of wide open spaces there.  I'll assure you of that.  There's a lot of wide open spaces there.  So you can move in, ok?  You want to move there Ruth?

(I sure do.)

Ok.  Betty, you just as soon move there as Pennsylvania?

(Yes.)

Ok, move in - - there's lots of open space.  Ok let's take the next comment.  That one took a minute.  Debbie?

(You talk about subconscious and patterns of people.)

I can talk about things that we do in our sleep.  Would that be all right?  I don't know anything about subconscious; but I do know about things we do in our sleep. 

(Ok, how about patterns.)

Patterns which are things we do in the sleeping state, ok?  I will try to talk about that Miss Debbie. 

So, we'll draw a picture here.  Inasmuch as I have never drawn this picture before.  Number one portion of the pattern would be purpose.  The purpose is to be non-disturbed by - - we’ll let’s see, ‘cause I'm entitled to it; and if I don't get it, I would do some complaining.  That's quite a pattern. 

Number two, stick up for rights. 

Number 3 is try to please people. 

Number 4 is authorities that we have accepted and looked to to see. 

Number five is I would try a route of self-improvement, still doing the same thing. 

Number 6 would be blaming. 

Now people run through these patterns for whatever non-disturbance.  They may go from one, complaining, to three, pleasing, to one to two - - to whatever reaction they do.    Many people will go from one to three.   So they have a pattern of starting on one; and they get a little disapproval and they immediately go to three.  And then when they fiddle with that for long enough, they'll go to five - - try to improve themselves.  They'll lose weight, gain weight, get a better job, lose better job, get married, get unmarried etc.  And then they will go to Number 6 and set out to blame and then they're back down here and start over again, ok?  So does that help your viewpoint of a pattern?  Now it is only which one of those methods they are used to using. 

Now not everybody uses all six of 'em continually ok?  They get their favorites, huh?  Now I know a very lovely lady who can't stand drunks.  She just simply can't stand alcohol.  She's only married five alcoholic husbands in a row.  Now I would call that a pattern, wouldn't you?  And with every one of 'em, she's greatly shocked when she discovers - - after she's married to them - - that they're an alcoholic, you see.  That's a great deal to her.  She's all horrified and torn up and she's victimized. 

Now the greatest pattern that I see going is that the person wants to prove that they are a victim of something or other.  Now I think if we could get that one idea out, very few people would play their pattern, Deb.  What do you think about that?

(I agree.)

Ok.  So the key to the pattern is that the pattern always makes me appear to be a victim; therefore, not responsible.  So I am a victim, therefore not responsible for my inner state of being or anything else about my state of being.  I'm not responsible - - it was them, right?  So this is the greatest pattern that I see; and if a person can finally accept that they are the one that is responsible for their inner state instead of seeing themselves as a victim, the pattern ends.  Now I've worked with a lot of victims in my day.

(Oh I’ll bet.)

Yeah, there's a terrible lot of 'em - - a victim of this, a victim of husbands, victims of circumstance, victims of alcohol - - you know, victim of food and etc. etc. etc.  But as soon as the person can work; and the only place I would work is that I am free to choose to do any of these; and I want to take charge of it.  If it was any one of those things; the first thing I say is, "Let's do what you were doin' to begin with." 

So like this lady that married five alcoholic husbands.  I suggested she get another one so she would be in charge of it, ok?  Hum?  So she went out, started lookin for alcoholics to get married and she quit.  She quit marrying alcoholics because  she found out she could tell one before she got married to him.  You know strange that once she was ready to intentionally go do it - - see the fact - - theoretically, before she had done it accidentally.  In fact, she grabbed one of them who was drunk when she married him.  So you know, don't give me that business.  But she was a victim - - she didn't know they drank.  Good Lord, they stayed drunk all the time, you know. 

So, I am a victim; therefore, not responsible for anything.  And that is the pattern source, ok?  Now the minute a person takes charge of things and begins to be responsible for it regardless of what the pattern is, whether it was a certain kind of relationship or certain unusual behavior or any of these things. 

Debbie used to run down the street in the middle of the night and eat in every restaurant you could find.  You wouldn't let one of them know how much you eat there so you left that one and went to eat in another one, right?  You were a victim of an uncontrollable urge, is that right?  And we talked about it.  You were really gonna go eat all those rich, gooey things, is that right?  It made you sick; and you haven't been doing it since, ok?  That about right Debbie? 

(Right.)

But first you had to take charge of it and doing consciously  what it was doing.  As long s you resisted it, you felt compelled, is that right?  It was an uncontrollable compulsion.  But once you decided you were deliberately gonna eat napoleons all night it was over with.  Now you don’t' have those uncontrollable urges any more, is that right?  That pattern's gone.  Now all you were doing was  keep telling me that you weren't responsible for the way you were eating - - that it was an uncontrollable urge.  Now we all have, supposedly, uncontrollable urges, I'm sure.  That's the way we say we're not responsible.

My uncontrollable urge is spend more money than I make.  But as long as I pay cash, it's taken care of pretty quick.  Huh?  So when they do things like that you take charge of it, ok? 

(Very often you see yourself in a similar relationship - - over and over.)

Oh yeah.  Well, like the one that married the five alcoholics in a row.  Right. So you always set those up because then you're a victim of the relationship, is that right?  So now whenever you want to, the next time you are in the mood to start a relationship, you be sure to look to start one that does so and so and so and so.  You will use a routine; and go out and try to find the guy that will fit those qualification and see how quick Miss Debbie starts laughing about it, ok?  And you'll find you can't carry it out any more. 

But you have to start by taking charge.  The key in anything is that you take charge; therefore you are responsible for it, is that right?  You take charge of getting a relationship going that's gonna wind up the way of all others, ok?  You know what kind of guys to hunt up, don't you?  You're well acquainted with them now, is that right.

Now if you deliberately went out to find one of those, Miss Debbie, you'll start seeing the fun in it just like you did about the uncontrollable urge to eat and all that stuff, you remember?  Ok?  That help get clarified now.  Ok. 

(It’s recurring.)

Well, yeah, I guess that's another word for patterns.  It's a more elaborate word instead of just saying we do things over and over in the same old pattern, why we could say eternal recurrences, is that right?  It means the same differences, yes - - just a different terminology that somebody who likes 16 set of words instead of 4's use that.

(Would you talk about renouncing?  It says if you want to become a student you have to renounce all.)

Well, all that you have made important, you cease to make important - - that's really all it means.  So all the things you’ve made important in the world, you'd have to stop or else you can't really be studying anything.  You're only struggling how to get all those things you’ve made important.  You're a bundle of anxiety theoretically and factually, and I think, you couldn't very well study anything while you're anxious.  So renouncing merely means that I have re-evaluated it and I no longer make it important, ok? 

(Yes.)

It's no longer important that all my kids get along with each other or with their Dad.  It's no longer important that this situation occur and that situation occur.  You see, the reason a person can't really study is that they're making these - - an endless number of insignificant things very important - - situations and events that comes along - - they make it important that they don't happen or that something does happen - - that somebody gives me approval and doesn’t disapprove of what I do, that they give me attention and not ignore me, that I’m never embarrassed and everybody sees that I’m “right” all the time.  So renounce merely says I have re-evaluated it; and I see that while it may be very interesting, it may be very delightful to me, I may like it very much, it is not important.  I can go on my way.  So you can't be a student while you're making something utterly important.  That's the whole bit.

(And each thing that comes by, you’d have to make that unimportant.)

Well I think you'd get in the habit after while of not making things important just like you got in the habit of making things important.  So when we have a habit of doing something, it's nicer to call it being spontaneous about it, you know.

(Well there are some things that I have now been able to look at as not important.)

....not important - - ok, then there's some you're still making important, is that right?  Well, all right, I would start looking at those; and re-evaluate those; and when you can not  be making those things important, then your head's clear and you can do things.  That's why it says, “you can't be a student while you are making things important” would be another way of saying it.  It would mean the same identical statement ok.

(So it would keep you from doing it.)

Well, yes, it does - - don't you?  All you do is get all agitated.  You can't even look at things clearly while you're anxious, is that right? 

(Yes.)

“I've had little fits of anxiety” - - you can't see nothin' clearly, ok?  That right Betty?  I’ve heard you say that numerous times.

(I guess so.)

You can't see nothin' clearly while you're anxious, is that right, so you knock it off, ok?  Have you been anxious Ann?

(Oh yes.)

And you can't really accomplish anything, is that right?  You just run around in circles doing things.  So now could you sit down and really look into the nature of things calmly and serenely and see “what’s going on” and choose what you're gonna do while you're utterly anxious.  So it says, that's mutually exclusive.  You can't study while you are a bundle of anxiety. 

(Well now I’ve found that sometimes when I'm anxious; if I get up and do something, then I .............)

.....then you quit being anxious.  That is absolutely the best cure for anxiety.  Get off of it and go do something.

(Now could there be things then ...)

Hidden?   No way. 

(Hidden from my awareness.........)

Oh you better believe it - - they are the whole thing; and I would go get me an analyst and spend about 10 years with him - - three days a week at $100. an hour and get it all figured out if I were you.

(I didn't mean that.  What I meant was that I told you things I thought was important and then___)

….then another one pops up.  In another words, if I had a barrel of pickles; and I started picking the pickles off the top of the barrel, more pickles keep floatin' up to the top.  I don't go digging down to the bottom to see if there's one down there.  They come up by themselves.  Quit frettin' about it.  As long as they're under the surface, they don't bother you.  When they come to the surface, that's the time to look at them.

(Ok.)

It saves $100 an hour.

(I know.)

It probably would take 1,000 hours.

(To bring up one pickle.)

Yeah, one pickle at a time.  But I always figure the pickle come up without me spending $100 an hour on it, ok?  But if I was in the practice of shrinking heads, I would tell you that was an absolute essential.

(Right.)

Right, right, ok.  But as long as we're not in that business, why bother, ok?  It'll come to the surface by itself if there is anything.  And while it's not there, it doesn't bother you anyway.

(All right, what about people who are not - - who do not see value in the work.  Can it be valuable to them?)

To go do all that?  No, but it's very valuable to the therapist.  (Laugher)

(It would be more valuable to them to not go do it - - then if they would get more...)

I don’t' know one way or the other.  I'm not suggesting what people should do, ought to do and what they must do.  I'm only talking about what people want to do.  If they don't want to do anything about it, have fun.  If they want to go to a therapist, have fun.  I'm not layin’ out the routines, ok?  Now if number one son wants to go to a therapist; and number two son wants to take up drinking, I have no objection either way, ok?

(Yes.)

Ok.  And if one of them wants to study something, that would be fine too.  It doesn't matter.  They could study any number of different approaches - - and for some, it would probably work for them.

(And as long as it fits his need and it's important to me, and that’s one of those things…..)

Yeah.  And so if you're trying to get 'em all straightened out - - you wanna be sure they do the right thing which nobody knows.  So then you can't study very much at that moment.  Now while you're not getting them straightened out, you could study.  It doesn't say that you can never be a student.  It says you're not a student while you're hangin' on to something.

Continued............

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